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I propose a ban on math related topics. This forum is for discussion of HP calculators including usage, repairs, sources of replacement parts, general information. The way I see it math is not part of the forum discussion topics listed. In any case, there is no need to discuss math, you can find math related information in zillions of references materials, everything is somewhere for one to find it (if you are asking a math related question you are just being lazy). Bottom line, I have a heart condition and it stresses me greatly to look through the treads tyring to avoid math related topics and I do not like it.

Regards, Thor


Best regards from V.

Gracias Valentin, love your website!

No problem, Thor.

P.S.: I don't know, just a feeling: is your post to be taken seriously? Or is it just "tit for tat" because of the poll I proposed earlier today?

Hi, Thor:

    Thank you very much, very kind of you !

    I also love your insightful posts and I'm doing the best I can to avoid indulging in the trait you explictly state in other well-populated thread below, with encouraging results so far.

Best regards from V.


Nobody is forcing you to read math-related threads. So why are you forcing your interests on others? Math topics are important for me and I look forward to threads that are related to math, statistics, and numerical algorithms in general.

I don't read every thread. I pick and choose those threads that appeal to me. Consequently I don't impose on others what they should and should not write about. Sounds logical to me!


Edited: 25 Aug 2007, 3:23 p.m.

I fully agree.

And one of the reasons I (and possible many others) use calculators is because of maths. So, it seems logical to discuss what feeds the use of calculators in this forum.

Agreed. In addition, the vast majority of math related questions around here directly involve the use and operation of a calculator.

Thor, with all due respect I think you need to read the " General Terms of Use" for this forum as stipulated by the owner and moderator Dave Hicks listed below

"Users of this site will conduct themselves with responsibility and decorum, and will discuss topics of interest to our community. This should be a fun place to visit and all community members should feel welcome. The topics of these forums, include just about anything listed in the Museum pages. These include HP calculators, early HP computers, general math , calculating machines, computer history, tips on buying, finding, repairing, or using old HPs etc. Off-topic items may be deleted (or not) at the sole discretion of MoHPC."

Edited: 25 Aug 2007, 4:30 p.m.


... you need to read the " General Terms of Use" for this forum...

Yes, but maybe the outcome of this poll will lead to a change of these terms? I hate maths too and the first thing I always do with every new (old to be precise) calculator that I buy, is to remove the '+', '-', 'x' and '/' keys because they remind me of it :-)

Greetings, Max

NB: I have a heart condition too - it won't stop beating - even removing the battery and shorting the battery terminals does not help...

Edited: 25 Aug 2007, 4:42 p.m.

Hi, Thor;

If we discuss calculator usage, what else but math (and any other related science, like physics, statistics, engineering and so...) and programming (if applicable) should be discussed? In many other discussions related to ban this or that subject, the majority (AFAIR) voted not to ban anything, instead to count on contributors and visitors ability on dealing with such liberty.

My thoughts, though.

Best regards.


Edited: 25 Aug 2007, 4:52 p.m.


I agree as well. The most immediate purpose in buying a calculator for most is the need to do math. This site is prominent among those dealing with HP calcs. Certainly, as shown by this site, there are many who are interested in collecting, but for most the need to do at least some math is paramount.

It would perhaps be better to offer a forum strictly tied to a collectors needs and others that encompass the needs of new/returning users, such as myself, for information tied to the functional use of our calculator(s).

Yes, but maybe the outcome of this poll will lead to a change of these terms?

Maybe, but also in the terms of service:

Forum rules are not up for debate. This is not a democracy, but rather a private forum.

So then again, maybe not.

I propose that we stop talking about calculator programming. These old machines are too obsolete, and talking about programming them just rots your brain.

I think we should restrict ourselves to nice, non-controversial topics like the weather. Oh.. wait..


Fully agreed! I'm Mathematician, PhD, and I do deeply love the Queen of science ;-). But, it's clearly not Mathematics what I'm looking for when visiting the forum.

I enjoy the math discussions, along with just about everything else here.

I usually learn something, especially from Valentin's challenges.

Furthermore, it is very easy to get information on common HP models, such as the 12c, 17bii+, 28S, 33s, 35s, 41C, 49g+, 50g, etc., so there is really no reason to discuss them here. The rules should be amended to exclude discussion of such models. Only HP's lesser-known calculator models such as the 46, 81, 94D/E/F, 95C, and 9805A should be discussed in this forum, and then only with regard to using them for non-mathematical purposes.

For example, the 46, 81, and 9805A make fantastic paperweights. They can hold down an enormous amount of paper. And unlike that rare Klingon Christmas snow globe [*], it's unlikely that one of your coworkers will steal an HP-81. For one thing, it's far to big to fit in a coat pocket.


[*] The works of Charles Dickens are so much better in the original Klingon

Edited: 25 Aug 2007, 7:58 p.m.

I'm sorry thor, I disageee...

Math and HP calc's go hand in hand. You don't use these wonderful devices to solve crossword puzzles, you use them to solve math problems. Math is part and parcel of their operation.

Best regards, Hal

I have yet to see an auto forum which bans the talk of engines. Without an engine, a car is useless; without math, a calculator is useless.

Interestingly, Valentin seems to agree with the ban on math related topics.

I also support the open forum discussions that include technical issues regarding calculator usage and math problems with creative solutions. Great poll!


I know I not allowed to comment, but this really bother me. It seem that this group starting to develop socialist tendencies. It almost if some of you saying "sit down, be quiet, and don't say or ask anything unless we say it okay." You all need grow up.

I so tied of reading all the crying on group. About how I not do research first, or how I no do this, or how someone should not do this. I do research, sometime I no have manual with me, but I yearn for answer. I like child who look at life with amazement. I have many question and I basically told to sit down and be quiet. That is scary as it remind me of old Hungary when soviets there. I see too much death in that regime. Too many smart people not allowed to ask question and when they do, they get banished or worse yet. I ashamed of this group over behavior of last two day. Beside that, I very hurt.

That is all I have to say. I sorry for commenting, but I felt it important.

I am very happy to hear your voice again Vincze. This is America. We get it done better, only after we have free and open discussion and disagreement. You better get a thick skin if you are going to survive.

Hi Vincze,

I am also a relative newcomer to this site - but I have been lurking for some time... My take on the matter is that no one asked you leave and only one private message to you suggested that your posts were not always up to snuff so to speak; rather someone simply suggested (in what was supposed to be a helpful email) a more tempered approach to certain strings in the forum - instead of participating in every single string. So what? If you read the replies, most folks really appreciated your questions and found the ensuing discussions enlightening. I agree. You are a delight to read. Keep posting.

Forums have a certain etiquette that people follow and adopt over time. This one is no exception, but it is a very nice forum with a lot of interesting contributors. Everyone has the right to an opinion and as long as that opinion is expressed respectfully, there should be no problem. This particular discussion is just a poll. Good to see you back!!


Vicze, I totally agree with you, and disagree with the proposal to ban math topics.

Those who don't like a certain topic don't have to read it. Let's allow free speech to happen here.

Wow, socialism and death in Hungary? Where did that come from? For what it's worth, I'm from Western Europe, (The Netherlands, to be exact), and I have seen socialist and capitalist governments come and go more times than I can count, and they both have their good and bad sides. I can't help noticing that, while Europeans tend to take home smaller paychecks than Americans, they do seem happier overall. Oh, well.

Sorry if that seems OT, but I do have a point. Between asking someone to do their homework, and encouraging someone to ask questions, both of which I think are legitimate viewpoints, somewhere there is a balance, and some people may feel that we move too far away from that balance sometimes. So be it! We're all entitled to our opinions. As for you personally, Vincze, you complain about all the "crying" in this group, but you appear not to have noticed that for every posting that was critical of you, there were many times more that were supportive.

- Thomas

This is America.

Well, lots of us are posting from America, the site is hosted on American servers, the curator is American and we speak American English, mainly.

But there are a few participants from other places, so discussions here sometimes have an un-American flavor. I propose we ban discussion of anything not clearly American in cultural origin. That would include not only mathematics but language itself, of course. So I'll shut up now.


Hi, Vincze,

One of the hardest things to translate between cultures is humor, since it often depends of specific cultural references. Take the proposal to ban discussion of mathematical topics. That is probably a humorous suggestion because:

  1. Mathematics is one of the three main topics you will see discussed around here, often at length and with great enjoyment
  2. The subject is pretty well inseparable from the discussions of the calculators themselves, since they are tools to do numeric and symbolic math.
  3. The curator's Terms of Use specifically call out math as a topic that is appropriate for discussion in this forum.

If the suggestion wasn't intended to be humorous, it is funny anyway because of the reasons above. So some of the discussion you are reacting to is probably intended to be funny.

Second, this community, like every other voluntary community I've ever participated in or am aware of, periodically goes through spasms of debate about what really defines the community. For an online discussion group this usually, as here, takes the form of complaints about recent content of posts. Debates like this were apparently (before my time here) responsible for the ad section being split off from the main discussion threads, and in the ad forum being presented in two forms, one with auctions, and one without. More recently, we engaged in a long discussion over the topic of eBay. There is a large minority that dislike discussions of eBay and who would prefer to see them split off. We took an informal poll, and it turned out that the majority felt that these discussions were often relevant to collecting, so the curator did not create a separate area for those. These were both good, appropriate outcomes, that took into account the majority view on matters, despite what Dave Hicks says about this not being democracy. (I suspect he says that so that he can reserve his right, as the presenter of the museum content and this forum, to take actions he believes are right despite what a majority might feel at any given time.)

Unfortunately, this time around, you were the "lightning rod" for a particular complaint many people have had here over the years. Forum members are encouraged to do research before asking questions. Somehow, some folks apparently got the idea that you weren't doing enough of that kind of research. Personally, as I said in the original thread where you reported getting an email telling you to stop "dumbing down" the forum, I think that simple questions benefit me because I get to revisit stuff I learned a long time ago. At a minimum, this refreshes the knowledge, and since it's knowledge about topics I love, that's a pleasure. But sometimes I learn something unexpected in the process, or even find out that something I thought I knew was mistaken. I really value those sorts of experiences.

I also think that your questions weren't all that simple, most of the time. In fact, I suspect that it may be the way that they are conveyed that annoys some people. That is, your command of written English isn't up to the usual standard around here. That's not a problem for me - I can understand you just fine - but it may be for others. (Apologies if I'm misreading anyone's state of mind on this.)

In any case, I wouldn't worry too much about the opposition this has stirred up. As someone pointed out, you have quite a bit of support here. I think your best course would be to try to adopt some of the more helpful suggestions, and do as much research as you can. And then ignore the stuff that seems hateful or unfair to you. See how that works out. Perhaps that will be all it takes to mollify some of your critics.

As to the "socialist" nature of the discussions, that is a very loaded term coming from a Hungarian, of course. It has a different connotation in Western Europe, where quite a few democracies adopted socialist economic and social policies. In the US, the term is fraught with years of cold war rhetoric, and full of echoes from recent and ongoing political struggles. In all three cases, the term is likely to ring different bells in the minds of the reader. Exactly because of that, the term "socialist" in your second sentence tends to push buttons you probably didn't intend to. So let me offer my interpretation of what you meant. You think that some of the comments sound like they are coming from (soviet style) political commissars who want to control your behavior for the "good of the community?" Is that right?

If so, I have a couple of suggestions. First, given who you are and where you grew up, you may be more sensitive to that sort of thing, especially when criticism is directed at you personally, as was so unfortunately done here. There may not actually be quite so much of this "socialist tendency" you are seeing. Second, none of the criticisms I have seen carry the weight of power that the old apparatchiki had. In other words, you don't have to follow any of this advice if you don't want to. Dave Hicks, our curator, is the only guy who could actually kick you off the board. He's actually a pretty benevolent dictator. If you stick to those terms of use, you are probably safe from any action he might take. Third, there's that Eastern/Western European split on the value of socialist thinking. Some folks actually do sign on to that sort of thinking. But they do so in a democratic context in their home countries. In other words, I believe that none of them expect to have their way unilaterally. They would all probably accept a consensus one way or the other, and that consensus would be shaped by your supporters as well as your detractors.

In conclusion, I'm glad you are still hanging out here. If I were you, I'd go back to posting your questions and engaging in discussions like you were before all this flared up. You can try to be more aware of sensibilities that say you should do more leg work before you post, but I wouldn't take that to extremes. For example, even without a manual, pushing buttons on your 35s or other HP is a great way to figure out how it works. What you are aiming at is something I heard you remark on in an earlier thread: the ability to conceptualize what is going on inside the calculator. That will come with practice, and discussions on this board. It's worth trying for, in my opinion, and I support you in the effort.


Took me a good hour and a half to put together my recent post on 35s code for the incomplete gamma function.

Took me about two seconds to kill it.

Sorry for the mathematical intrusion.



Took me about two seconds to kill it.

Why on Earth did you kill it? Only because somebody came up with this joke of a 'poll'?

Greetings, Max


Sorry if I am going to offend someone and may be out of place being newbie here, but my advice is for us not to get all this silliness out of hands.

One observation: Suspect the creation of the HP-35s brings new people to this community (how I got here), something thats a good thing.

Propably not a good thing then to scare new ones away by the forum found flooded with all this. My guess is you will loose the best ones...


Edited: 26 Aug 2007, 6:16 a.m.


...but my advice is for us not to get all this silliness out of hands.

You are probably right with this statement. For me - and obviously for many others as well - the original post is clearly intended as a joke (*). Not even a bad one. But somehow, maybe due to cultural differences? not everybody can see it this way.

My guess is you will loose the best ones...

Firstly, I don't believe that (as some of the best ones have already reacted in a humourous way) and secondly: Who are those 'best ones' anyway?

Greetings, Max

(*) A 'no maths' demand in a calculator forum is like someone walking into a Chinese restaurant, telling the staff that he is allergic to rice and asking to have all rice dishes removed from the menu :-)

Edited: 26 Aug 2007, 6:43 a.m.

When I read the orginal post I had a small laugh and belived it was right on the spot.

But when people say they are leaving and someone removes content rich post (oh, was that a joke to? or...)...

Sorry if offended with 'the best one' remark, may sounded more elitic than meant, heaven knows I don't counted myself in that set.

I think MoHPC is a great site and the forum is I guess *the* HP calc forum and I am sure that it will continue to be that.

Regards, Aha

Edited: 26 Aug 2007, 7:22 a.m.


... and someone removes content rich post (oh, was that a joke to? or...)...

I really hope so!

Sorry if offended with 'the best one' remark, may sounded more elitic than meant, heaven knows I don't counted myself in that set.

Don't worry, I am (almost) impossible to offend (went through the hard school of growing up as a german kid in a foreign country 40 years ago when the war memories were still fresh - no internet discussion is ever going to offend me!). Anyway, I am rather a lurker here myself posting a stupid question every now and then.

I was rather couriuos which regular posters on this forum are regarded as 'the best' by newbies and for what reason? You must not answer, of course, as I will not answer this question myself :-)

I think MoHPC is a great site and the forum is I guess *the* HP calc forum and I am sure that it will continue to be that.

It certainly is and it certainly will. Mathematics included :-)

Greetings, Max

it is so funny to see how forum visitors behave like their calculators.
for example, try just a few keystrokes:
02 [ASTO]forum

Edited: 26 Aug 2007, 9:00 a.m.

One contributer that is rather inspiring is Valentin Albillo and the way he does it; organizing his material on his own website and inform on updates with posts here.

Think this pattern is something other also could consider in these times when starting a blog is done 1,2,3. I don't mean that you have to match Valentin's effort!

Personal I have started a project where I will try develop HP-35s code using java and then to use this framework to implement a geometric library for the calculator. I will not flood the forum with details, code and progress but do that in my java blog and make short post here when something new in my blog.

Another poster here that has helped me is Jim Creybohm who pointed me to the Samson shop.

Edited: 26 Aug 2007, 9:21 a.m.

I really hope so!
Well, Les' interesting Thread about the incomplete gamma function and its applications is actally gone as it seems.

Damage count so fare after the 'friendly advice...' post:

People offended to the degree that stated will leave:


*Will Hartung (if I get his post right)

Content deleted:

*One Incomplete gamma function

Personal I did not think Don's or Thor's posts where something to get that upset about. You got to be able to take some critic sometimes and a joke.

Well, guess things calms down now, it all will slide overt the '2 days forum view event horizont' soon... if we want to...

Edited: 26 Aug 2007, 12:04 p.m.

Hi Les,

I hope you put your submission back!

I assume that Thor, and everyone who agreed with the No Math proposal, was joking. Even if they weren't, it's not up to them to make the rules around here.

- Thomas

Well, a day has gone by and I am glad my ban proposal has NOT passed. Thank you very much to all the participants.

Special thanks to Valentin Albillo, for his great math challenges, great restraint, and good sense of humor.

Vincze, welcome back, please stay.

Maximilian Hohmann, man, take care of that heart condition, ASAP!

Less, please, take it easy or you are going to have a heart attack! I like math, put your submission back!

Walter B, no hard feelings.

Regards, Thor

Edited: 26 Aug 2007, 1:26 p.m.

I believe Valentin has some utility that takes snapshots of the Forum and preserves posts that even are deleted. Maybe he has a copy of my post?

If not, I will retype the listing and commentary.

I had no idea the poll was a joke. I have been sick and my sense of humour is shot, I think!


The content of the above thread was practically dumbfounding.

Post something informative, and quite often there is minimal response. Post something silly, on the other hand, and a vertitable beehive of ulimately insignificant discussion ensues.

We should remember that the Forum postings get archived by MoHPC, and are subseqently included in sales of CD/DVD sets. It's best to keep the Forum a forum, not a banal chatroom. Breezy statements such as these are not helpful toward that end:

"If looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... "

"Some people just simply can't do that, I think it has something to do with having an anal retentive personality."

I, for one, support those who advocate, publicly or even privately, in the interest of quality. The points of Don Shepherd and James Prange resonated with me.

-- KS

Edited: 26 Aug 2007, 5:33 p.m.

lighten up!

Thanks, Karl, and thanks to everyone who supports civility and common sense on the forum.

thanks to everyone who supports civility ... on the forum.

I sorry, but I have to comment. Civility? So you have civility? You basically decided on your own that I do no research before I post? Sure, so of my posts my seem trivial to you, but you have no idea what I try to find out before I post. I come to forum looking for wisdom, because this group of wise people, and you decide that I should sit down, be quit and not ask question. You say I make unnecessary posts. You tell me not to post a response to every post. Who say you allowed to make this commandment? If someone think it worth making post, then I think it worth my post to answer or follow-up their post.

You tell me to pick up pencil and paper to work through program. You not even know what my problem is with program. It not with how program work, or what in x, y, z, t, but with what certain command mean. How is pencil and paper going to help me?

You an not one I have most issue with Mr Don. I think you were trying to be civil and helpful, and maybe just did not convey message properly. I know I guilty of that with some of my posts (not getting question across properly). I have clarified my question behind scene with person who respond, so you not priveledge to see, so I can forgive that.

What I most upset about is HATE mail I receive to my email. I have email from some of you who tell me very mean and vulgar things. I get people telling me to go back to Hungary and leave this group alone. I get people telling me Don say what I want to say but he not go far enough. I have someone say "Go to h$ll you mother f*c*ing foreigner". How you think this make me feel? I sure this not intent of your post, and I understand. But it not easy being me. I get made fun of quite often because I not talk good English. I see people killed when they ask question and told to be quiet. I know this not what you want or wish. I know you want civility, but what I experience last two day not civil.

Here is what I propose. Let all of us drop this. I try with all I have to do what other wish and do more research before I post. I know some may think I never do enough, and I sorry I can please all, but I try. I ask all you to be more tolerant of me. I not wish to receive any more unlike me mail.

Mr Don, I sorry for being mad at you. I know you not know I was, but it wrong for me to me mad at you. I hope you can forgive me. For those of you who wish bad things of me, I hope you forgive me to for things I think of you.


Vincze, I did not know that you were getting such vulgar emails privately. Anyone who uses that kind of language deserves to be removed from our community. I strongly urge you to report those people to Mr. Hicks, and I would hope that he would take whatever action he deems appropriate. Anyone who sends emails like those does not deserve the privilege of being in this community.

Your language is fine, I never have trouble understanding you. Your English is certainly better than my Hungarian (because I have no knowledge of that language).

Vincze, I want to publicly ask you to remain in this forum community. It was never my intent that you should go away, and I do not desire that. You do bring a perspective to the forum that I think we need.

your friend, Don Shepherd

What I most upset about is HATE mail I receive to my email. I have email from some of you who tell me very mean and vulgar things. I get people telling me to go back to Hungary and leave this group alone.

Americans are known for being provincial boors (and have been for a long time: see Mark Twain's rants on this subject in The Innocents Abroad), so don't take it too personally. At least you don't have to live under the government they elected like I do.

It used to be a source of pride to say I was an American when I travelled. These days, I think I'd rather just speak Spanish and claim to be from Mexico. :-(

Whatever happened to talking about HP calculators in this forum??

Mr. Noble, you don't have to live under the government the American people elected. You're free to leave anytime you want, or to stay and voice your opinions. That freedom is not found everywhere in the world.

My friend Don, Thank you for your post, it mean very much to me and I know it not you wish for that bad will. I learn much from reading all posts after yours and mine.

I not wish to "tell" on people as I know what happen to people who be told upon. I know that not happen in this world now, but still, I wish it not.

I know who they are, and they do as well. That all which is important now.

I have all you in my prayers.

Your friend, Víncze

Mr John, I see you American like me now. I not ashamed of America, and you should not be too. You have no idea what it like in other country. Be thankful for what you have.

My father and mother were killed for saying thing that did not belong to soviet consensus, and it make many people mad. They were killed while I was very young. I had to watch, and I remember Papa saying "ÉN akarat nem mond átok ez!" which mean 'I will not tell!"

It is source of great pride, as it should be of yours, to say I am American! Say it proud!! I think you not know what it like to not be American.

your friend, Víincze

My friend, please do not talk this way.

Your friend, Víncze

Mr John, I see you American like me now. I not ashamed of America, and you should not be too.

Ah, I misunderstood and thought you lived in Hungary. Yes, you are as American as I am, if not more so since this is your country of choice.

All the more reason to be disgusted with people telling you to go back to Hungary. You belong here more than they do. But I'm sure you know this.

You have no idea what it like in other country. Be thankful for what you have.

I'm not one of the "provincial boors". :-) I have lived elsewhere, and I fully appreciate that things like running water, especially hot running water, should not be taken for granted, nor should free speech, freedom of/from religion, etc. Still, I'm embarrassed by my government (the past two administrations plus the clowns in Congress during that time) and I'm tired of having to explain that I had nothing to do with it.

Mostly I feel a lot less safe. I hope things take a turn for the better, but it looks like the Chekists are winning. Habeas corpus is dying, and we will soon be be hearing strong echoes of Ihre Papieren, bitte! at, of all places, national parks (yes, a passport will be required for travel to certain places inside the U.S. -- or a federally approved ID card which is the same thing).

Now, back to what I thought were some pretty interesting math questions, Vincze. The parts I understood, anyway. :-)

... we will soon be be hearing strong echoes of Ihre Papieren, bitte! at, of all places ...

Hmmmh, this sounds like 62 years ago at least. According to my very personal experience this is not true anymore for quite some decades. IMHO you may have found less distant examples (in time AND space) easily instead.

Respectfully, Walter

This thread may no direct (or any) bearing on HP (or any) calculators, but is still valuable in itself.

We should let people post as they please, because just about everyone, if not exactly everyone, here is basically an educated, polite person interested in HP calculators. (Notice I left out "vintage" because, using myself as an example, I was drawn here because of my affection for my old Spice, I remained because of discussions pertaining to HP calculators I've recently bought and are still using!)

And, the discussions always swing back to topics that pertain to HP calculators.

Further, math, science, philosophy, language, even many other things, do tie into calculators and computers, even if not HP branded. And even if we ignore this, these things stimulate thought, the lack of which would retard use of and interest in (HP) calculators.

So, folks, POST ON! I trust the collective sense of propriety here; none of us are stupid, after all, not even the Hungarian guy! :D

And, the discussions always swing back to topics that pertain to HP calculators.
Here one that I think will not trend back to HP calculators, but I may be wrong. I see a four foot long mummified walrus penis is for sale at an auction. Now that strange. Let see if anyone can pull that back to HP topic. :)

not even the Hungarian guy! :D

Thank you.... I think. ;)

Edited: 27 Aug 2007, 1:43 p.m.

Vincze, I think I understand the problem with the guy who sent you an anonymous e-mail. Coincidently, the other day, I was reading Jerry Potter and he had a similar problem... he did not like the size of the ENTER key in his magic wand. Unfortunately, I do not know how to solve the problem, but it is his problem, so do not worry about it and let it be.

Regards, Thor

I not understand what you say. I think you say let him deal with his own issues and ignore him? If so, that what I plan on doing. Sad part is, this person, is person who post here quite often. I shall not say who as that beneath me. I let him deal with his little itty bitty ENTER key issue by himself. In Hungary we call this "kicsi fasz tünetcsoport". I let you figure out what that mean as I not wish to offend anyone. All I say is that in my country, we don't eat that part of the dog. ;)

I think you are a Troll, if not you are sure acting like one ;-)

What does that mean? You say I like Romanian Gypsies who live under bridge and steal from people? Why would you say such a nasty thing like that, or is this too a joke of some sort that I not understand?

Edited: 27 Aug 2007, 3:27 p.m.

Oh, that was not very nice towards the ethnic group gypsies, was it now?

Lets hope not any of *them* has any interest in good calculators..., th, th...

...and that from a guy who has been crying for how bad everyone has been against him the last few days...

From Wikipedia:

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, has come to mean someone who intentionally posts messages about sensitive topics constructed to cause controversy in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET groups in order to bait users into responding.

I not even going to waste my time with you.

Nem, Vincze,

AFAIK a troll is called a person provoking other persons to argue in continued posting. At least it looks like this is the meaning here in this forum. Therefore, sometimes you'll find the request: "Do not feed the troll."

If you want to learn more about trolls, you may read J.R.R.Tolkien. Originally, trolls are from Norway. No relation to your

Romanian Gypsies
, wherever you took them from.

Hope this helps, Walter

P.S.: Just saw Arne was typing faster :)

Edited: 27 Aug 2007, 3:54 p.m.

I have noticed your english improve sometimes...

Think I my silver bullit found it's mark.

Real trolls from Norway? Interesting, I not know that. So person accusing me of being troll might be one. I just kidding. :)

As far as Romanian comment, in Hungary we associate gypsy with Romania. We tend to look down on them as a lower class. In fact as child, parents tell child that gypsies from Romania come and kidnap them is they do not do what they are told. Sort of like 'boogie man' in USA. That was not nice of me to say and I apologize.